Building Connected Communities: Lawrence Eta - CTO, City of Toronto
I hope you're enjoying a safe and innovative start to 2022!
Last year, I shared a window into my recent professional journey from transforming one client enterprise at a time, to an ecosystem-wide innovation focus. During this journey, I had the honour of meeting and working with leaders that inspire ecosystem growth for a long-term positive impact to the society. These leaders enable positive changes with every initiative they champion and every decision they make. This is a deeper commitment based on strategic investments and consistent leadership. Their goal is to enable long-term solutions for real positive impact to the society. These solutions are designed to enable well-being and sustainable lives for the next seven generations in our communities.
Lawrence Eta is one of these futuristic and inspiring leaders. Lawrence is the Chief Technology Officer (CTO) at my very own city, the City of Toronto (awesome Canadian city, eh?). Lawrence and his team have been supporting Torontonians since September 2017. Lawrence is a multi-national business and technology leader with more than 20 years of experience in guiding operations and technology sectors through big transformations. He is a change agent capable of designing and implementing complex and impactful business strategies.
Lawrence and I discussed the City of Toronto's recent evolution. This includes the City's important work during the pandemic to ensure the safety of its residents, and the new Digital Infrastructure Plan (DIP). Watch the conversation below and learn more about the DIP.
Lawrence: "Toronto is a city that puts the community first and drives change, transformation and innovation".
If you enjoyed this conversation, join the global transform this community for future editions of 'Transformation to Innovation'.
The goal of DIP is to enable a connected community. Below is a brief summary of the DIP. More information is available at this link from the City of Toronto: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/accountability-operations-customer-service/long-term-vision-plans-and-strategies/smart-cityto/digital-infrastructure-plan/
What is a connected community?
At the City of Toronto, a connected community will be built using processes, tools, data and technology to optimize resources and enhance the quality as well as accessibility. It will increase the performance of urban services, economic competitiveness and engage residents, businesses and visitors more effectively. Ultimately, it will be a digitally connected community, working to support holistic needs of the residents.
What is the digital infrastructure and its impact?
Digital infrastructure creates, exchanges or uses data as a part of its operation. Digital infrastructure includes physical structures, cabling and network systems, software systems, data standards and protocols.
City of Toronto's DIP will improve Torontonians' quality of life in a variety of ways. It will assist in the development of a society that promotes fair, accessible and inclusive advantages. It will enable social, community, economic and environmental well-being for all residents.
Principles for City of Toronto's DIP
The City has identified six principles for maximum positive impact on Toronto's residents:
Equity and Inclusion
A Well-run City
Social, Environmental, and Economic Benefits
Privacy and Security
Democracy and Transparency
Digital Autonomy
Lawrence and his team have an incredible vision for a future City of Toronto:
Lawrence: "the vision starts with the community right in the middle, and everything that goes around it in the next 10 years must be about the community".
This resonates extremely well with me. Innovation and transformation are only effective when they create an immense amount of value for the community (residents, customers, employees, partners...). Processes and technology are tools to help us accelerate an underlying strategic vision. Pair this strategic vision with disruptive technologies, and together they can create a long-term responsible future.
In the end, here's what I believe matters most in the post-pandemic world,
business and technology conversations must always translate into benefits for the people; both for the collectives and for each specific individual.
This is what we need to progress as a holistic society. And, this is how we define responsible innovation at GoEmerald and transform this. If this resonates with you, watch for next week's newsletter with more information.
At this time, I sincerely thank Lawrence and the City of Toronto team for their continued dedication in keeping us safe, especially as we prepare to tackle the new pandemic wave this week. And, I wish you a healthy, happy and productive week.
If you enjoyed this conversation, join the global transform this community for future editions of 'Transformation to Innovation'.
Video Transcript (autogenerated, unverified)
welcome everyone i'm gunjan from goEmerald and this is 'transformation to innovation'. today i have the cto from city of toronto lawrence with me lawrence welcome and thank you so much for making time for this conversation oh thank you for having me it's great to be here and i'm really looking forward to it and having this great conversation absolutely as i notice about you is your diverse background right in terms of professional in terms of the community involvement could you please tell us a little bit more about that and what inspires you to do that work yeah it's certainly been a journey in terms of my background like i'm sure most of your audience i started off in away whereby coming into technology and actually before that i actually started in retail right in the united kingdom i actually studied with retail and there's no other business whereby you're engaging with people and it was back in the day i won't show my age when retail was still in store so there was none of this sort of digital or ordering things online and then through that journey it goes through technical but one of the things that's really inspired me is about the people connectivity and the ability to make a difference in people's lives and i think that's what technology right now is really enabled and we're showing that through the pandemic but it's it's here to stay so my inspiration is really being about leaving a sort of footprint or leaving a legacy that you know i can look back with so many people and said i remember when we made a difference on on you know trying to use technology to solve affordable housing through artificial intelligence or when we use technology to ensure that people could submit their vaccine information we could sort of have that so that's really where it's really inspired me about connecting the community and those things yeah absolutely and you also have that entrepreneurial spirit right in your past yeah definitely and i think you know in just a bit of a journey when you've lived in so many cities seven or eight cities you know i've moved around a lot with my family and who's been very supportive and you certainly can't do it without a lot of support it takes a village right that means that you're always coming as an outsider right i'm always joining a place where i'm trying to build relationships understand the community understand where it is so that gives you a viewpoint to be entrepreneurship you've got to go and get it it's not going to come to you and if you want to go get it you've got to get off your virtual chair in this case go and learn about your neighborhood so there's a bit of a strategy when i move and i arrive i try to find foundations you know join the gym you know get to volunteer and quickly you get to learn and then you don't feel so much as an outsider and it happens fairly quickly so that's sort of the blueprint or the framework that we've used every time we've relocated for opportunities yeah it's a wonderful right so in my personal world i like to call it feedback loops what type of feedback loops can you create with people with society in general with certain groups of people and how they think and what are the trends towards their needs so it's amazing yeah so now you're dedicated in public sector so what inspired that move from retail to moving around into different cities and working in all these different industries what inspired you to focus now on growing sector well you know it's quite interesting because in some cases about a decade ago if you had asked me that i would be in public sector i would have sort of smiled and laughed and said you know i was more of a private sector but i think one of the things is that at the end of the day both sectors are trying to serve in some ways the community and the public of course wants a profit and revenue business and the other is a different business model which is really built on the foundation of the public right public sector and what really inspired me was that i i thought that through all my private sector experience it may sound like a cliche but there was an opportunity where i saw the world moving so quickly and we're going to talk about that i saw for example you know in 20 to uh in 2000 and 2013 you know 2013 i could see the advancements in terms of the ability to move more of the technologies onto a cloud to scale to that aspects i could see in terms of how much technology was involved in change management process for engineering and and also as well as that um i felt that uh that that knowledge in private sector could maybe have an opportunity to do something different in the in the way also to look at learn government you know government is usually one of the biggest employers and also bring some of those skills and importantly i just found once i joined the public sector i learned so much which the public need to you know there's so much in terms of the public sector that affects our daily lives and being a part of that with such a great team was just so inspiring so it was something that i sort of came into um and it's been a real joy just being part of that experience so in many cases ten years ago it wasn't the plan an opportunity presented and that opportunity gave me a broad understanding to to learn what the private sector is trying to achieve yeah and that's such a wonderful overview right you mentioned the way that success gets measured in private sectors revenue um so i'm someone that's data obsessed and i have to have metrics for what the results and um the end at the end of the day what am i accomplishing right that's how i measure myself so in public sector when you're looking at making difference in people's lives are there certain metrics that you and your team are defining for yourself absolutely and i just want to preface the fact is that certainly um in the city we certainly move into results-based accountability so so as much as there's qualitative metrics um there is also you know we have the public and we have accountabilities based on its taxpayers money we want to measure that so there's certain metrics we could be interested how many people are moving from shelters to permanent housing that's a very strong metric that we can measure you know and i'm sure some of our emergency services have very strong measurements in terms of you know the ability to deal with emergency services whether it's you know ensuring that our fires are put out or ensuring that our paramedic service is there so they're very strong measures in terms of technology for our respect um we we we measure things on and uh we're gonna talk about this but there's four guiding principles that we measure things it's it's the four s's um so how stable is the technology you're enabling there's nothing wrong with a remote platform right now but if that remote platform isn't stable then the service levels have measured so we have service levels to say our traditional benchmarks the up times and etc um and then we can scale another metric we measured over the pandemic is that we went from 1 000 people remote to 10 000. that's in six weeks that's a strong metric so we measured you know how do we scale because also we're satisfied 2.9 almost 3 million people so that's another measurement the solutions we're putting out digitally are we scaling that to ensure the public and then we measure it with you know in terms of a lot of the integration that we're doing right now how much of those technologies are creating a seamless experience so when you come to the city and you want to engage with us digitally and you can measure that so how many touch points you know how many different channels do we have and within those channels do they all interoperable so that's another measurement and then sustainment you know we are a measurement to a strong measurement right now for technologies that over the past few years our vision is to get 80 of our infrastructure in the cloud compared to 20 now the reason for that is that the measurements is scale is how quickly and also to ensure that they're secure and safe so there are very tangible measurements now the qualitative measurements are at the end of the day through public consultation can the public say to us that they feel that their voices are being heard and we have a framework where we're calling draft digital infrastructure plan it's called the dip yeah it focuses on now six principles the first principles well-run city and it's not necessarily order but are the metrics running the city are you getting your water um yeah are you the solid waste the garbage being picked up etc you know the second principle that comes into social economic and environmental so socially uh reassuring people's voices are being heard and there's qualitative ways to measure that and then essentially equity and inclusion you know we are today where we are in terms of ensuring that people feel that they've been included in the decision making that's happened in the city you can measure that how many people are participating in committees how many people are sharing their voice how many people are coming out to necessarily participate and then the democracy and transparency which is the elect the process we are governed by elected officials and elected by those 2.9 million people and then we look at privacy and security are we keeping ourselves safe and showing that your data is being privatized and the final one that we're looking right now is digital autonomy and showing that the way we're looking at open source and certain digital pieces it's being generated for the good of the people so the voice is there so there are qualitative and quantitative now one doesn't take over the other that's what's different to the private sector it's not all the bottom line all of those measurements are important in all of those areas we have to be able to demonstrate through the elected process and through the committees and through transparency that all those measurements that's what's kind of can be challenging because you have to you have to look at it holistically as opposed to just my profits and just essentially my loss or how much revenue i made each quarter yeah and there's dependencies across some of these as well right managing some of those and managing relationship as it is with the residents of the city that's no small feat right correct correct i mean the difference is that you know in the private sector maybe you may have your board you know five or 12 people and you're of course countable in a public forum to your shareholders but here those 2.9 million people are on board and they have a voice and they need to be consulted and they need to to be heard through the elective process so trying to manage all those interests and keep those interests feeling that you know democracy is occurring it's certainly uh you know my to my counterparts on the private sector it's certainly a balancing act i would say in this world understatement of the day right certainly very very educational for me i i never realized um this is how much it goes on in the qualitative side of things right a lot of the times in private sector there's marketing teams that are managing that relationship or sales teams that are managing that relationship in public sector as you said every single member of your team is representing um your office right they're representing that i'm boarding if i if i made that service so they could be walking down the street and they're among board members so it's quite quite interesting to think about it that way that's right yeah so one of the other things i was wondering right there's a lot of terms that get thrown around in private sector these days so a couple of them are transformation and innovation right and they get defined differently in every context so in the context of city of toronto how do you personally define them um for me transformation is really a cultural journey that's how i see it you know it's taking from one state you know to another state and i'm sure if we do it on wikipedia we'll talk about that so transformation is about how do you change a certain behavior or how do you modernize that behavior for example um the counter service we have a service where people traditionally would come to city hall or come to one of the civic centers and in person they would file for example you know a funeral license or they would want that in person well that counter service doesn't go away because there's an equity led so we still need to provide it but we we're trying to move behavior so that people can do that digitally so that's an expense you know now how do you get the public to say i'm going to go on my device and engage the city that way and you're also talking to a public at different demographics you know from the baby boomers to the millenniums to the gen you know different different generations several different generations who want to experience government in very different ways so to me that transformation is moving to one state to the other that's how i see transformation and then inside the city we have a large amount of divisions 44 divisions it's now trying to move a really big organization to adopt some of these sort of approaches that are digital and change their business processes because often people talk about the technology so the way i've seen the transformation and what we're shifting and what i'm trying to shift is that it's not about the technology conversation it's really about the business and the change management so that's how i see transformation one state to the other you know stage then in our industry it could be called the cmmi the capability mature model in terms of you've seen that sometimes now innovation is bringing something new it's saying maybe this example is not so new now but you know artificial intelligence which has machine learning we are now going to utilize a sector to answer our phones that's going to use data to be able to look at trends that can be new some people can call innovation as a proof of concept taking a whole new concept um that is in there or some people could call innovation of just changing a process right so to me that's innovation it's coming with something new it's saying how can we take that new and then that newness of innovation then transitions to transformation because if you prove it and it looks like you've gone lessons learned you've failed you've discovered which the private sector during the time then you can say i'm going to now move it to the next state which is about the transformation because there's no point of us doing it over the paper anymore so that's the way that i've seen it in this sector in terms of i would articulate the difference yeah it's very interesting right usually people tell me one leads to the other but you've described it almost cyclically right it's a cycle and you need to continue to adopt and massage that cycle and bring all your board members all correct millions of people along with it and change that behavior that's again no small feat right yes and it's a rinse and you know the private sector will call it the rinse and repeat so it's a wheel as you mentioned that goes around and sometimes you may go into a scenario where it is innovation that is taking the lead because it's never been done but one thing i will say is that innovation is not invention so a lot of the things in innovation have been done before it's just a new way of doing it so for example you know big data has been around many many many years it's now been utilized in an innovative way to automation to help call center management and other various areas but that's innovation the invention of that was years ago and sometimes there is a way that they try to delineate that it's not an invention here and sometimes it's even a poc sometimes the concept is not what we're really testing it's really about the acceleration from a pilot to transformation which leads into scale right so there's a nuance that's and certainly my perspective isn't the written book i'm just giving my cons my thoughts about how i see it in terms of the constant evolving and it's an interchangeable word there's another word that gets thrown around or what modernization yeah you know the transformation the innovation these buzzwords again the modernization to me is all those things you innovate you help transform you're transforming you're modernizing because it's something different to yesterday yeah it's very interesting right modernization to me is the end result of transformation isn't it yeah it's very very interesting right you're going to get million different answers when you talk to million different people and it's that experiential view right it doesn't matter what term you're using as long as the intent behind that the metrics behind that the approach can be relatable so thank you so much for sharing that there was a lot of insight there one of the other things i'm wondering is how is the city approaching some of these conversations pre versus post pandemic you mentioned earlier within a matter of six weeks you had to take everybody remote right they were coming into this beautiful city office before so how does that change your world well number one it was culture so the the fact was that the technology was always there it could be but the conversations would have taken years because it's behavior it's habits right that's what culture is i've done it like this for many years what is the view so what has changed is now the speed right and the expectations so now you've done it you've proven you can do it in a pandemic well there's no slow in the you know the the door is open so the keto is now balancing how you do that with whether it's budget whether it's the amount of people and really the skill sets you require that you have to transition and train and now that's all happening at very fast speeds right right you know so before we would say oh we would go and do remote or this hybrid walk and here's your manual and we would do it we would take our time now it's is it here's the platform yeah intuitively figure it out right so i think how it's changed our world is that um and i've always felt is that we as technologists are actually bigger we've got to understand money yeah because there's a cost to all of this we've got to understand change management we've got to understand so i see us as technologists so how it's changed that is that you know while we are the technology zone a lot of the leadership we need to provide is really on the ability of change and to help people manage that concern um in various fractures so for example you know i don't know how to use this platform and guide them because there's technologies that comes into it because that's how we've been trained that's how we've gone through our career journey and in part of our you know our lives so i think the pressure now is more sort of having that general rounded we still need all the specialists you could either also you know there and how it's changed as well certainly in the city is that we go through a process about build versus buy yeah because in some of the building house you don't have time right for example you need to get you need to you know you only have so much time and so now there is a way whereby this is that we think we need to go out to to buy this to go through that process through a procurement process which takes time rightfully so and some things we sort of build so before the pandemic we'd made some it had a vision and we made some sort of i don't like to call it to huge organizational change i like to call it to we made some tweaks yeah small incremental yeah that you know when i took over the position officially in october 2019 um i'd be in the city from 2017 as the deputy chief information officer we changed a role there were certain things in 2017 i saw that we did and it was just really about the s of sustainability so when the pandemic hits well we could turn it up very quickly so those are some of the ways it's really understanding your ability to be agile in terms of move quickly but some of the things have a longer and it's it's a pulse and sometimes it's a it's an art sometimes and sometimes it's a science so the art is about knowing the pulse of the organization the relationships knowing the pulse of the public the science is about the methodologies we have some very strong methodologies and bringing that art and science together to make it happen and certainly that's what we had to do so there's a lot more pressure i think we as technologies are in the middle we should be in the middle of all these conversations now there's nothing that happens without us but it's really ensuring that we remember what value do we bring to this conversation sometimes the value is it's really about change management sometimes the value is about business process sometimes the value is all all the above the technology will force us to change so now people just expect it at a speed they probably wasn't there um two years ago yeah and one of the things that and i know you and i have talked about it earlier i'm personally very passionate about inclusive innovation right and you can call it multiple different things right call it inclusion call it availability of technology making sure it's designed ethically and it's available to all different types of people but i find that that's also one area that kind of sometimes falls through the cracks in between business and technology because there's no one side that's taking ownership or accountability of it right so what you just did is describe technologists as not just someone who's focused on this tangible tech piece or a solution per se that's being deployed but looking at that entirety of that call it ecosystem call it and do and use case right different terminologies that get used and look at how this is actually going to impact people because digital literacy is another issue that's come up right during pandemic so there would be let's take more mature population in the city as an example right they might have been able to walk over and access certain services in past and now it's a mobile app now it's on the screen that they may or may not know how to use effectively um so would you have any thoughts on how public sector whether it's people or organizations could look at this more holistically and create maybe an approach to make sure that everybody has access to these services in an equitable way yeah and i mentioned one of the ways we're doing it is for your audience you can go and google or research our dip digital the draft digital infrastructure plan it's on there it was approved by city council in 2020 january just before the pandemic had gone through and it takes those principles i mentioned and i can tell you you know for my private sector lens there is nothing more humbling and educational when you come into the public sector that talks about equity and inclusion right you will be you will be it will shake you up and i'll give even some things that i've just continued to learn accessibility yeah i've learned so much about the way the tools now so i'm a big champion for accessibility and showing that through the testing through the way that we're doing in terms of because really people and people from accessibility um i've really grown through that and we have a committee that's led by one of the councillors called the toronto accessibility committee and it's really educated my eyes even on the video conferencing platform and which is really meant is that it's it's brought a conversation where we can challenge our partners to ensure accessibility is part of the product roadmap design so when you're building products it has to be and and the province has the aoda which is the accessibility act and very in terms of there but that's another part of the inclusion right um and then i'll give another example whereby one of the things in the public sector is that listening is very important so when when the public says to you is that we're a very successful city but access and affordability to broadband technology is limited depending on very communities and first people would say that's toronto we have deep access we do we have great but is it affordable right to various groups if you're somebody on a lower income and you know you're getting 600 a month and 10 percent of that possibly 60 dollars is being spent in terms of ensuring that you're having high-speed internet etc all of a sudden now it's a very different conversation on your economic circumstance so i think the public servants we have to come into a lens and those frameworks so what we're doing is that dips are policy documents we're embedding into the city aoda accessibility is now accessibility by design right that comes up front it's no longer an afterthought it's like you want to put products you want to engage with public sector accessibility is on there as more things go digitally and using that voice so those are the things that have really shaped me i would say in my four years in public sector which i'm not stating that it wasn't part of the conversation in the private sector but you can certainly target certain markets you could say this is your product in the private sector we're all digital that's how it is you want to use our products you're going to do that it's not like that we're serving the people so the the aspects i've mentioned has to be part of now in technology we have to now be pushing those conversations on equity and inclusion because we have a stronger voice because we are the technologists and we see the process from end to end we see it you know and usually if it doesn't work it's going to have a conversation the technology doesn't work but sometimes it's not the technology doesn't work it's how the process was built whether the process was built equitably and was including people and also was accessible to that and that's that's really where we have we put in frameworks to help that conversation up front as opposed to an after effect absolutely because technologies as you said are supporting the entail of it when something's broken but you're also noticing where things were not designed as you said for accessibility and for everybody else in mind you're able to inform those business partners and educate them right to say correct next iteration needs to be better correct and and the large strategic partners our vendors are suppliers you know i'm having conversations with them and say you know this is now part of it now the advantage being the largest city in canada with our brand it allows that but i see on that as part of social responsibility just based on the fact is that based on our size if toronto toronto is having these conversations it can benefit the other municipalities across the country and also benefit other aspects of of the country just based on the fact of our size and the fact that you know we are part of the big six cities the gdp is very strong in toronto so we can use that voice for good to help those other municipalities bring them to the table and state that we are we also are putting accessibility up front as the city of toronto we're putting equity and inclusion upfront and we've had people who've reached out to us and we want to show that share so i see us as a almost a national responsibility across the municipalities uh as well as in north america because we're the fourth largest city in north america and to have that voice and that's very you know with those with with greater responsibilities come greater viewpoint in terms of the humanity in the society and that to me is is really where i find that um my role can can also do a lot of good and it's not just on the technology but it's about changing things for the future generations and that's the legacy yeah i think that myself and my colleagues within the city are working towards together absolutely and that's uh speaking to your global experience right being that global citizen and driving that change for being that voice if you will um that brings people together towards that action not just having conversations all the time um so one last thing i wanted to ask you lawrence is if you were to picture city of toronto 10 years into the future right let's put our sci-fi hat on what would be your ideal city of toronto ten years from now um i'll use an analogy there's been a lot of talk about smart cities yeah and we've changed the language my ideally it will be how we are connected community so in toronto we don't talk about smart cities in that of course there are cities that are using smart cities and we are and that's really about the technology so ideally for now we'd be able to say when city of toronto went most of their services digital it included a lot of people and we are now connecting people in a way that for example we're able to have you know community conversations in a digital way that we could not before and it's about the community up front so 10 years from now where we're bringing what the latest censor is the latest internet or industrial internet of things it's 5g now whether it's whatever level of [Music] broadband comes in place in the future we are putting the community in the middle we're putting a community on the edge and it's like a circle for me it's the vision the vision starts with the community is right in the middle and every ring that goes over it in the next 10 years is about the center point of the community and to me that's really the 10 years vision how we achieve that is of course the challenge and what we do but it's really for me 10 years from now now toronto is about a city that put the community first and drove changes transformation and innovation it was based on this community and the voice of the community made those changes that's to me what i see in terms of ten years from now and and now and going on yeah absolutely it's a as you said earlier right iterating upon that and it feels like you're putting people at the focus because people are the community right that connected people community and tech and processes are mutable they can be massaged to meet the needs of that community and they'll change regardless right uh tech will continue to evolve but the community is what it is that's right absolutely um any last thoughts uh that you would like to share with our viewers lawrence any words of inspiration from your own leadership or your own career yeah i think that you know there's just a few things whereby our partnership is very important so i want to let your audience the private sector is extremely important so private public partnership p3 is extremely important we don't do this on our own you can't um but also as well as that one of the things is that i feel very fortunate it's about putting your staff first the empathy of of our people the people who work with me as colleagues because ultimately i can set the strategy and set the vision but without a great team um you and i conversed about that you know even just making this it still takes uh talented people in my office to make it happen yeah so i think that while the customer we get the customer is the external but also the customer and in our case we call it the employees so we have a customer service committee and we have an employee experience those are interlinked yeah you know you don't start you know you don't you don't serve really good customers in terms of you know meet the services to the 2.9 million people if the employees so to me it's about caring and showing and emotional empathy to walk with we can still set direction so i i don't want the employee or the staff experience to be lost because they've done a lot through this process in many organizations both private and public sector working long hours their families have sacrificed so we should also be caring and kind and supportive to the people who make us the ability to come and have these great conversations because they're the ones delivering the service at the end of the day in terms of the day-to-day keep keys on on the hands in terms of keyboards working so much so yeah absolutely and let me take this opportunity to well thank you and thank the whole city as well for pushing us through the pandemic right you're the ones that showed up every day whether that's emergency responders or technologists right when something was wrong or something was broken you still had to show up and fix that so thank you so much for carrying us through the pandemic and we're i don't think we're at the end of it right that's arguable we're still living and breathing it we'll see how that turns out but to your point with those partnerships with putting people first in the community first those are the values that are ingrained in and it shows right yes indeed and thank you for this opportunity and being a wonderful host in having this conversation with with your audience. absolutely and thank you for this authentic conversation it's not every day that we get a chance to sit down and actually have a conversation that's not just about day-to-day operations of our lives
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